Balkadoxy
Todd,You are one of the coolest guys I know. Your wife, cooler. The mutual interests you and I have just floor me sometimes. A picture of you on my posts would only serve to enhance it, possibly 'up' my blog's monetary worth way past that of Blogodoxy, esp. a picture of you playing in the '79 ping pong world championship. People would look and say, "Oh that Todd Warner is wild!" in a fashion not unlike the way Brandon feels about Ben Affleck.
Anyway, just a quick comment here. Thanks for the testimony of Albania-a truly amazing witness of how God's Church will triumph in the end! Also, if you noticed, I was very careful not to limit the atrocities to the Serbian side. The numbers will tell you that they wreaked havoc in the 90's conflicts...but only this time around. I see your point in referencing Catholics being hanged in the reformation, atrocities toward Native Americans, or utter genocide in Nazi Germany, and more-all done by "Protestants". But I think that I have a valid question when it comes to the Balkans. I'll be the first to say that unspeakable sin has so permeated protestant churches that its rancidness makes it hard to call myself one of its members. In fact, going back to what Brandon said, not only could he walk down the street and jump right back into another church, but could probably be thrown right into a ministry position! TRAGIC! But I make no such claim of being part of "The True Church."
You asked: "Do you honestly believe that these things were done as you put it "in the name of the Serbian or Croatian (Orth. and Cath) Churches"? My answer is a weak "yes". Ethnic identity is too closely tied to religious affiliation in the Balkans. It sure makes it hard to see who is devout or not. The Serbian Kosovo struggle is an overt campaign to regain the land they call the birthplace of Serbian Orthodoxy (let's PLEASE not debate here who was in Kosovo first). (My conviction is that it is not just the religious aspect for which they are fighting but also, if not more to regain Kosovo for its natural resources. i.e. "Trepca", one of the richest mines in Europe.) I'm not in any way defending what has been done by protestants in the last several centuries. I just don't see protestants making any claim of being the True Church, or "the fullness of the faith." Orthodox do, and so I challenge, can sin creep into the Orthodox Church to the point where it becomes a nationalistic entity as it has in many countries? Does it stop being the fullness of the faith at that point? What kind of accountability is there between Serbian and Antiochan leadership? Can the Orthodox Church ever stray from being "The True Church"? I'll ask my question again from the last post: And on the assumption that "the pope" wandered from the church, and we being western wandered from the pope, what justification do we have to leap frog over the "authroity" of the pope back to orthodoxy? And why just to orthodoxy of Antioch? Why not Moscow? Antioch, Alexandria, Jerusalem, Greece and even Rome are all understandable, but what about Serbia? Romania?
friendship in the heat of debate
Remember this song?
For the sake of friendship, I want to say this. I'm sure we have all noticed the heated nature of the remarks following my blog entries. I've read writing on Blogodoxy and some of you have said how much this kind of talk "tires you out." I'm sorry to hear that. It not only riles me up, but tires me out too. I find interesting the comments that flowed whereas not a single one of you addressed my question about heresy and scripture. Let me tell you why I wrote what I did:
1. I'm in a place where nothing is going down easy with me. Nothing regarding tradition, scripture, reason, experience, NOTHING. This is a good thing. Maybe it's the unconventional perspective being taught at Wheaton (I know that may raise an eyebrow but I won't explain here), maybe it's my experience as a missionary, I don't know. But I am really digging at what I believe and you all should praise the Lord for that. Some of you have made, in my opinion, outrageous assumptions that just because I'm a good ole Moody boy that I care nothing about tradition. I honestly believe that if you only look to scripture without tradition you express a serious degree of ignorance.
2. That being said, I believe that the heated comments stem out of a deep love that we mutually have for one another. None of these comments would have been written if none of us knew each other. My friendship with each one of you has been built on Christ. We have ministered together in foreign settings, prayed together, worshipped Jesus together. Just as my marriage to Janet is centered around Christ, so it is with my friendship with each one of you. Point is, I care so deeply for each one of you. My mom will tell you that one of my great qualities is loyalty. Now, enter your "True Church, fullness of the faith, we-believe-and-you-believe, subsequent-heresies including-protestantism-who-have-no-church, recovering-evangelical" language. Can you really not see how that marginalizes me and how that hurts my loyalty to you? I know, I know, they are not new claims, but 2 thousand years old, I KNOW. So be it. It hurts and that is why I wrote. Life goes on. It is hard to talk about Christianity any more with you all, and like I said, that is the foundation of my friendship with you. For that reason, I am thankful for blogs and this dialogue. I am not, however, thankful for ugliness on my blog and yet understand the heated attitudes.
3. Consider my context. I have spent the last 6 years ministering to Balkan refugees and nationals. You will never see or read about the things that I have seen happen in the name of the Serbian or Croatian (Orth. and Cath) Churches, or Islam. I've been in Orthodox church on Easter in the Fmr. Yugoslavia and you will have a hard time convincing me that they are the fullness of the faith when only nationalism is preached. Or when the Orthodox priest in Pale (Sarajevo suburb) and his sons pull out AK 47's and open fire on NATO troops when they storm the church in search of the world's most wanted war criminal, Radovan Karadzic. Do I have to tell you about the mass graves, the rape camps, etc? (I like this site by the way: http://www.iwpr.net/balkans_index1.html) And on the assumption that "the pope" wandered from the church, and we being western wandered from the pope, what justification do we have to leap frog over the "authroity" of the pope back to orthodoxy? And why just to orthodoxy of Antioch? Why not Moscow? Antioch, Alexandria, Jerusalem, Greece and even Rome are all understandable, but what about Serbia? Romania?
I don't even know where else to go from here. There is so much more I want to say and discuss...I'll close by saying that every one of you is an excellent communicator of spiritual truth! You are remarkable writers and debaters.
Spiritual Sickness
"Here's a little somethin to break the monotony" (Will Smith quote. Anyone know the song?). I hear that it is worth taking a trip to Amsterdam just to see this painting by Gerrit van Honthorst. Just look at it for a minute. All of scripture had pointed to Jesus and the High Priest opens it up use it to condemn him. Lesson: "WE ARE SPRITUALLY SICK, DYING PEOPLE IN NEED OF A MESSIAH....Oh My" (Dorsett) May God help us.
Being labeled a heretic
Re: "So since you believe firmly that apostolic succession is not important, then I guess you don't have to take too much offence at the word heresy, since it only means a departing from church teaching."
Looking through Scripture, I found the word 9 times. Original word: ai-resiv. Please correct me properly on this if wrong, but it seems that being a "heretic" is a moral act, so can it really be attributed to millions of Protestant Christians today?
Galatians 5:20 (the works of the flesh are...) Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
1 Cor. 11:19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.
Acts 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
Acts 5:17 Then the high priest rose up, and all they that were with him, (which is the sect of the Sadducees,) and were filled with indignation,
Acts 24:14 But thisI confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worshipI the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets
24:5 For we have found this man a pestilent fellow, and a mover of sedition among all the Jews throughout the world, and a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes:
Acts 26:5 Which knew me from the beginning, if they would testify, that after the most straitest sect of our religionI lived a Pharisee.
Acts 28:22 But we desire to hear of thee what thou thinkest: for as concerning this sect, we know that every where it is spoken against.
more...
MOL, thanks for the comment. When I am not a tired head, I will write more. For the time being, this is what I believe: One army, many regiments. That is, for believers in Christ. Here is some more aggressive language from a dear, dear friend of mine which I am having a hard time swallowing:
The Roman Catholic Church left the other ancient sees a millenium ago. And we await her return. There will be no compromise. We will never accept the infallibility of the Pope, the heresy on which all subsequent heresy(including protestant) rests. But she is not regarded the same as the protestants (including Anglicans) who have no church (as defined above).
http://raphael.doxos.com/comments.php?id=P1796_0_1_0
The Church
Language is powerful. When you hang out with your closest friends and they use language like "we belive..." or "we do this..." Or when they (see below) refer to themselves or others as "recovering evangelicals," it can often leave you feeling like an outsider. So if I may endeavor into these waters, I'd like to hear any of your thoughts or comments about WHO is the Church? I've attached some writings below from a site called
www.blogodoxy.com
A Note Regarding Unitended Controversy
I have been made aware of some discussion on another blog regarding the wording of our statement here at Blogodoxy. It seems that there is disagreement with me saying "both branches of the ancient faith," that this phrasing suggests a mission to our blog that is antithetical to the teachings of our respective Churches. I must admit that I made the mistake of hastily wording it this way because I could think of no better words at the time to describe the two ancient Churches. I recognize that one of the main claims of both Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism, that they are both THE Church in full, are diametrically opposed to each other. As an Eastern Orthodox I will not, nor do I ever intend to, compromise on the claims of my Church. Nor do I expect any of the contributors on Blogodoxy to make this compromise either.
The point of this blog is to provide a forum for Catholics and Orthodox to comment on our lives and the world from an ancient Christian perspective. It is true that we have a view of the world that is unique; that there are many common things that we share.
For me and my fellow Orthodox, the only way for the East and West to be reconciled is for the Roman Catholic Church to renounce many of the claims that have been made outside of Ecumenical Councils. This blog is not concerned with that. I'll leave it up to those in authority in both Churches, as it should be.
In order to prevent further controversy I will change the wording of our statement and be very careful with who I mean when I say "the Church." I thank Huw Raphael for addressing this important point. He may have saved me from some swift retribution in the future. One must watch one’s words!
Mark Twain once said:
The difference between the almost right word and the right word is really a large matter - it's the difference between lightning and lightning bug
(begin new posting)
What could be worse than convertitis?!?
I appreciate Closer's comments and his presence on this blog. He is certainly making a strong point on his Iraq war tangent. It's needed, and I'm thankful that ultimately we are all using the ancient Church as our authority.
Closer, are you a pacifist?
A word about convertitis. I would caution those who in their desire to avoid the dreaded "convertitis," fail to protect themselves against a lurking opportunistic infection known as covertitus-itis. Now this is the danger for those of us who, in an effort to inoculate ourselves against convertitis, expose ourselves to cynicism and judgementalism of those who zealously pursue opportunities for piety. Both converts and protestants are susceptible to this disorder. Some of the symptoms of convertitis-itis may include: gaining a certain pleasure in breaking someone else's "rose-colored glasses"; deliberately not entertaining conversion just because a convert says that it is good; accusing someone of convertitis (rightly or wrongly) just because he is holding one accountable; or tell the recovering evangelical that religion shouldn't influence political decisions (we all know vocal pro-abortion cradle Ortho/Catholics).
Similar disorders may be contracted by cradle Orthodox/Catholics who, in there annoyance, experience some of the same symptoms of convertitus-itis. This is known as non-convertitis.
The point is that there are many converts who would never be so bold as to squeak a protesting thought about the most atraditional practice happening in front of their eyes, yet exercise a life of complete orthodox piety. And, in turn, there are cradle traditionalists who practice (and may expect others in their presence to practice) strict aesceticism(Mt. Athos) and continuous devotion to the ancient Church.
The people who we remember (and so pick-on) are the bumbling converts who shoots their mouths-off at every deviation from their limited view of the Ancient Faith. Let's show some grace though; this is not the majority of converts, and for those who are afflicted with convertitis, the only known treatment is time and maturity.
I mean, gosh, guys! Give me some time to grow up.
